I'm happy to read this. I'm not a fan, and I'm not a hater but I went through a 2016 whirlwind of loathing him for a few sound bites (his stance on pronouns that was my introduction to his work) and wrote him off entirely because knee jerk EW. I tried to watch a few other clips on YouTube because a young guy who cooked at my restaurant said he thought I might enjoy what a shit stirrer he was. I appreciate that sort of thing and he knew it and we often had amazing debates working in the kitchen together- he was a philosophy major, smart and thoughtful and complex- didn't fit neatly into any box, like all my favorite people (including myself, minus the formal philosophy education; and this case "him" for clarity's sake is my cook, not JP)
I reported back that I couldn't get past the entitled whiny crap about his dismissiveness about pronouns. He agreed and we didn't discuss further beyond him saying "I didn't think you'd LIKE him, just find his approach interesting" meh
2 years later, I'm at my now husband's house. I spot a printout of JP's 12 Rules taped up next to his workstation. Oh boy, I thought. Then he mentioned a recent Joe Rogan podcast 🚩🚨🚩🚨
I hadn't yet begun to identify as an anarchist (because wow is that word/philosophy misunderstood) but I was beyond liberal, no bleeding heart on my sleeve hand wringing NIMBY and I took a lot of pride in identifying as a disrupter and standing up for/with the underdogs. But it was then I realized that I was just as guilty of writing people off without actually engaging beyond sound bites. At the time I was also disillusioned by feminism and the online cult behavior of it all, especially younger women, but I kept my flag in that hill in some hopes that discourse would mature. It would be a few more years before I embraced anarchism and animism as ecosystem thinking and not isms with dogma. But who we associate with *matters*
So I really liked this guy and decided to practice what I preached about actually being open minded. I furiously listened to a smattering of Rogan episodes. Not for me, but I gained insight beyond the clips and adjusted my stance. Was I fan? No. But I softened and started to see why he was so popular and it's not just toxic bro culture stuff. Same with JP. They're case studies in media manipulation from many different angles, and I maintain they wield their influence irresponsibily, but like anything popular, it's not necessarily the icon that's terrible- it's the fan base and interpretations that skew the reality
Fast forward a year later and I'm sitting in a theater (nervously, like an interloper) waiting for JP to take the stage. I had a long list of suppositions about the audience, mostly younger white men. But I was surprised at the number of women and non-white people in attendance. It was orderly, people were kind, patient, earnest and eager- the energy was reverent. Peterson took the stage and was genuinely a rambling delight to listen to. He corrected himself as went, he changed course, he was nimble and charming. What the hell 😂
Again, still not a fan. But I get it now. He's so much more that a few sound bites but I find his authoritarian/authoritative stance to be deeply at odds with my values. Yet I also see his *archetype* and how young men, in this day and age, would find that appealing. And it opened much more empathy and understanding for the wide gray expanse between incel and "ideal" man. My husband is more of a fan than he'll admit, and one spell where I couldn't effectively get through to him I addended JP's 12 Rules with a (anarchist animist) wife version. Because the man was onto something- but it's so incomplete. Yet I also have that man to thank for inspiring my work in system roles and making space for complexity without complicity.
And now that my response is as long as your essay... I'll stop there 😂 thanks for being a great example of holding multiple truths. Oh and, I came across re-enchantment via Craig Chalquist in his essay about why he no longer teaches the Heroes Journey, before I knew about JP (such a hipster move! Ha!)
“Fast forward a year later and I'm sitting in a theater (nervously, like an interloper) waiting for JP to take the stage. I had a long list of suppositions about the audience, mostly younger white men. But I was surprised at the number of women and non-white people in attendance. It was orderly, people were kind, patient, earnest and eager- the energy was reverent. Peterson took the stage and was genuinely a rambling delight to listen to. He corrected himself as went, he changed course, he was nimble and charming. What the hell 😂”
Thank you for sharing. I wish everyone had the opportunity to see Jordan Peterson lecture in person. His character and perspective on life defy a lot of assumptions people make about him.
Just went and read through your "teasers" and the comments and I gotta add that I realize I may be doing the too cool for Peterson thing here myself, but I hope what I'm actually trying to convey comes through: talking about him conveys different things to different demographics, and I'm suspicious of both people who adore him and those who loathe him. Making room for the nuance of influence is close to my heart. Like my boss who would tease me for loving the oldies station "there's so much better music from that time" Yes, and, some accessible boppy pop is sometimes what brings people together. (And we could get into how "problematic" artists of that time were and draw some parallels 😂)
I came into this as a new follower (your Rocky piece shared by a friend) and have appreciated the way you tweak the lenses of modernity.
Nice! I took one of his courses/workshops and got a lot out of it, I'm always happy to spread his name around. I realized a lot reading this piece about the many intersecting interests I often discuss are unwitting signals to Jordan Peterson's work, which has never been my intent but it makes sense now realizing he's probably responsible for more people delving into Jung than the MBTI 😂
I liked Craig’s personality. I couldn't say the same about Peterson. Something is very rigid, harsh, strict, and disturbing in his energy. Hitler vibes I’d say 😀 Anyways, thanks again for pointing out Craig's work, it feels very organic and true. I’ll check a bit more of his work.
Bee, I just wanted to thank you for the little life-way history. At 62 I read Substack in part to get a sense of the millennial and younger thought-value trajectory. This is how I encountered and befriended JT (having much earlier encountered JP). So just know that no need to apologize for long personal story notes (I am also inclined to do the same). I will stop there, though I will say at my age and history I see a Good trajectory for you and your matrimonial life mate. I would speculate on where an metaphor-following ecological animist is heading (carrying an -ist backpack and bumper stickers) but that might fire you up in an unkind way. (🚩🚨). 🙏🏼
Well received, sir, thank you. I like being fired up clearly, but I appreciate your restraint as well as the blessing 😂 but I'm no spring chicken at 48, and the joys of being curious about life have brought me to a deeply integrated faith, and while I'm not Christian, I'm a big fan of Jesus and his teachings. Which makes it all the more exciting to be interacting in this space, as I'm not likely the "target audience" for James's work, it's inspiring and proactive to me in ways my own usual circles (labyrinths?! 🌀) don't tap into much. I was a bit nervous leaving the comment for multiple reasons, then embarrassed a little that I jumped in without more of a grasp of the work James has put out here, but I've found this all invigorating and have been sharing the conversation with my husband. He's a keeper ;)
Funny, I just returned from a couple of days with my ski buddy who is also your age. (My ski and surf age is much younger than chronological age). Perhaps that is why I detected your generational range within the thoughtful seeker genre. And agreed that “usual circles” can become corrals if we allow them to be. I’m embedded in a small hippie arty academic non-profit science ecology design professional context (and the same town) for 32 years. Very few of my mostly lovable compatriots realize there is a hole in the fence, let alone a potential better adventure beyond the enclosure. Those of us who venture in and out under our cloak of invisibility can occasionally sense it in one another but are careful to confide carefully and over time. We want to share but there are consequences to consider and little utility or kindness in uninvited boosterism. “Cause” in extreme = caustic. Erosion is not a motivator for me; yes to Good preferable to no to bad. Etc.
My ski and surf age is, uh, probably toddler range 😂 I have all the energy but lack coordination (but make up for it with a comedic and optimistic outlook)
I appreciate the reflection on caustic, I'll be borrowing that. Several sentences here have my brain and heart cranking, thanks for your generosity in engaging with me 🙏🏼
This essay does a better job of explaining the Peterson phenomenon than anything else I've read. Really well articulated.
I also never understood how guys like Harris could so fully misunderstand Peterson - maybe those guys are just missing something that, as you said, relies on experience rather than ideology for beliefs. Harris's entire worldview is based on a utilitarian foundation which simply does not find value in stories or myths. I find that completely out of touch and frankly anti-human. I mean, what the hell kind of human being doesn't learn from stories?
You've reminded me how ungrateful and cowardly it would be to spurn him in public. He does plenty of things that bother me, in a very visceral way, but he did after all help me finally get off the launchpad into classical thinking and reading. And for that he is a hero and will always be.
I like Jordan Peterson. Like a lot of people in post-Soviet countries did.
The first time I saw him was on the Joe Rogan Experience, and then I started digging his lectures, his debate with Sam Harris. What struck me wasn’t what he thought, but how he thought. He showed me that symbolic thinking can exist without naivety, tradition can exist without obedience, that myth doesn’t have to mean regression and critique doesn’t have to crumble into nihilism.
This was fresh for me. Not because I’d never encountered these ideas at all. What was new was realising how deprived Western public discourse seemed of these modes of thought and how allergic it was to them.
Later, when I moved to Europe, a lot of things disturbed me. Like trying to talk to people about Peterson and discovering that many of them had absolutely no idea what he actually said, what he stood for, or what intellectual tradition he came from, but they already had a fully formed opinion about him. Honestly, it was fucked up.
Thanks for including your dream in this. I really appreciate the subtext of leaving, (or not falling into), your cultural/intellectual father's house and the necessity of building your own.
I’m not taking my poster down out of principle, and probably even some affection for the man, not because the man was right about everything, and who is, but because if you watched Michael Jordan in the 90’s, you just kinda had to be there to understand… To understand why LeBron can never be Jordan and I’m not gonna try to argue why anymore.
Would love to talk more about the feelings that drive this piece. And why the sons of Noah either scoff or cover their father’s shame…
The world should be profoundly grateful to Jordan Peterson. Full stop.
That would be where someone would normally throw in some “despite his flaws” or “despite being wrong about X” - but of course he has flaws and things he is wrong about. He’s human! So I love that you mostly kept those caveats at bay. Great essay.
I didn’t come to JBP from the same angle as you - in 2016/2017 I was a 30-something mom who had formerly been a devout Catholic but found myself spiritually lost in a morass of doubt and confusion. Peterson helped me think about things I had known and believed in a totally fresh way without being afraid of where the ideas would take me. He was only one of the means God used in my life, but he was a big one.
I will go out on a limb and say that I think the illnesses he is experiencing are spiritual warfare. Whether it’s purely external attack, or whether he’s fighting some internal battle, whether there is some knee he won’t bend to God, that I couldn’t say.
Last thought - while most of this essay is really insightful, I will admit to not being aware of the main thesis. I knew JBP inspired split opinions, both on the left and the right. But I didn’t realize that even those who owe him a debt were keeping quiet about it. I guess it’s true? I hadn’t noticed and if I had, I maybe chalked it up to the short life of trends in our modern world - “how much more can be said about Jordan Peterson” - that sort of thing. I personally am willing to admit his role in my life - but I also don’t talk about him as much as I used to - maybe there’s something natural about that? Like you said - he was a doorway for me, but I’m already in the room. I don’t need to keep focusing on the door.
Ok, last last thought! I know this is a much more recent phenomenon, of maybe only the last year (at least openly) - but I wonder how he is/will be dragged by the split on the right due to the Israel question? His alignment with the Daily Wire and his stance before falling ill put him clearly in one camp. There are those who were pupils of his who will now find themselves at least questioning that stance, if not fully disavowing him because of it.
Thanks so much for the comment. It's good to hear from someone who enjoyed him "from the other side" so to speak. My wife and I are in OCIA classes now, so we're criss-crossing it seems.
Maybe more intersecting? I’m pretty ensconced in the conservative Presbyterian world now, but I’m confessionally just a Nicene Creed Christian with a lot of open mindedness about theology, ecclesiology, and liturgical praxis - not in a liberal way, I’m literal in my interpretation of Scripture and the central tenants found in the Creed. But I’ve given up on having epistemic certainty about litigating the differences between denominations. I’ve landed on - whatever church is one you’ll faithfully attend and brings you closer to Jesus - go there. And if your church is causing you to sin, go elsewhere.
Blessings on you and you wife in your process of becoming Catholic!
I agree. We should be grateful to JBP. He radically changed our eldest son for the better when he started listening to him in high school. He grew up in the church but was disconnected from the meaning of it all. Jordan gave him scaffolding and stones. I started following JBP a bit after that to see what the fuss was about. I had never read, much less heard of, many of the things (for lack of better words) he talked about. I was a narrow, highly-gaurded Presbyterian who didn't have the mental wherewithal to handle history, philosophy, psychology, AND theology. It was too much. Then one day, it all started making sense. The scaffolding was erected. The stones of a new building could be laid. It's dramatically enhanced by life.
While I will not put JBP in the place of Christ, I do believe he has been made an instrument on Christ's behalf, even if faulty at times. There are many within history/Scripture who fall into this category.
So, I too rarely talk about Peterson any longer. The work has been done. I do owe him much gratitude for helping a middle-age mom get out of her mental confinement. I owe him for being able to speak into a lost boy's life when his own family and church just didn't have the right language to communicate with him.
Now, if his brain would get out of the way so his heart can receive the gift of grace. ☺️
I’ve watched all of JP’s lectures. I even paid for a month subscription to the DW to watch Exodus. I find him oddly comforting, even when I disagree thoroughly. We share a favorite book - Denial of Death- and I wrote a masters thesis on Jung long before I engaged with JP. I honestly feel no shame saying I appreciate him, and would love to talk with him. Jordan, with open mind and heart, posted YouTube lectures after penning an answer to a Quora question that resulted in the 12 Rules, and was met with an online mob at the peak of cancel culture. His X behavior made me ache for him, when I was still on there. I watched a YouTube video of Greg Hurwitz having an intervention with him. I do hope he’s going to be okay. I miss his podcast. A progressive friend of mine tells me “Jen, you can’t possibly like JP. You are a college educated gay person!” But alas, i do. JP provided me with a doorway to step back into Christianity when i needed it most. Thanks for this compelling and beautiful essay.
I had a feeling he would fall eventually in public esteem and made a vow to myself back then that I wouldn’t ever badmouth him (barring some extreme circumstance). Wish I could find the meme I made, ‘leave Britney alone’ with JP’s name pasted over hers. I can say he’s not right about everything; as a religious person, his views on religion leave much to be desired. But I have a lot of affection for him and feel a certain sense of loyalty. I also, like you, feel it would be cowardly to totally renounce him.
James K.A. Smith introduced me to Charles Taylor before the Peterson phenomenon through his Cultural Liturgy series. This caused his wave to be more curiosity than personally helpful.
I love the perspective in this. Causes me to ask, where am I still playing status games when it comes to group pressure and the wish to seem sophisticated?
Interesting you bring it up. I did find that turn surprising. While I'm not interested in reading his future work I didn't notice overt political learnings in any of his other work (much of which I've read). I guess those who know more about the philosophers he sites may have had a heads up.
Especially when one is already suffering from affluenza and would rather plan what others should give up than personally consider Christ's call to sell all you have and give to the poor.
I am really grateful for this. I was a huge fan of Peterson back in 2016, but over time my appreciation has waned. You helped me remember just what a profound legacy he has.
Funny thing about Dostoyevsky is he spent much of his youth in the liberal circles only to repudiate some of those beliefs as he got older. I was struck by some of the similar arguments he described in Crime and Punishment from the nihilists and how they would have been right at home on tumblr. Eh well nothing new under the sun
Well said, Bee! Also a member of the (somewhat intellectually marginalized) other half of the human talent pool, I appreciate your piping up so eloquently to James’s magnificent exposition, like an intricate martial arts kata, all flashing blade, acrobatic spins and flips. I admit I could only follow half - or less- of the references, but the beauty, pace and vigor of the language made it worth reading. I was struck by how often the word hate appeared, followed by references to boredom and embarrassment. Hate, I believe, is rooted in disappointed love. Hitler rose to power because he could speak to longing and fear, offering a shining ideal, and the people, swamped in their stagnating, repressive culture, were starving for an ideal.
We love an ideal, until we’ve sucked the juice and chewed it dry, then toss it away in disgust when it has apparently nothing more to offer. Though maybe there are seeds at the core, that if planted, might bear fruit… As we mature, we can become more selective, discerning, and often willingly collaborate to cultivate ideals that nourish rather than lead.
It occurs to me that if you grow up believing that ‘the powers that be’ can order you into service to fight and possibly die for your country, you may feel that ‘powers that be’ do not include you, and therefore, you are constantly measuring all kinds of authority in terms of ‘power’ often balancing on a fulcrum of shame about your own perceived status. As you mature, you might claim the status of ‘power’ to tell people what you believe they need to know, which feels good, feels like a contribution to the collective conversation. And after you try doing that for a while, and things get messy, you may have to ‘drop the rope’ you’ve been tugging on, and let people do what they do, so that you can reclaim your own health and integrity.
Later in life we all go soft, more able to be and let be. I wish JP grace and ease at this stage of life, and I applaud James (and his wife) for sharing their ongoing process of understanding and discernment. I have to say, of all my 7 decades of life so far, this one is the most exciting and invigorating. We’re having more fun than ever!
This is an interesting read! Comparing Peterson and Socrates does miss the mark. I agree with you here. I always thought of Peterson as our Desiderius Erasmus, a heterodox thinker who used a new technology to spread his ideas.
Jordan Peterson was the academic who got rich and famous by taking his ideas OUTSIDE the insular world of the ivory tower. He is a thinker in an older tradition, despite his shortcomings (particularly his forays into the culture war - he failed on a Jubilee debate last year).
Compared to major living thinkers, Peterson rank quite highly. You mentioned Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. Harris is not a great thinker and his superficial reduction of religion is fit for sophomoric teenagers. Dawkins hit his peak with’The Selfish Gene’ decades ago. Neither is a match for Peterson.
Peterson succeeds in making the Classics relevant to large audiences (something my own liberal arts professors in college routinely failed to do).
Peterson fails in that his understanding of such thinkers as Jung, Nietzsche, and Eliade never equal the giants themselves. His ‘Maps of Meaning’ is an excellent read but his more popular books make him little more than the distiller of other people’s ideas.
I'm happy to read this. I'm not a fan, and I'm not a hater but I went through a 2016 whirlwind of loathing him for a few sound bites (his stance on pronouns that was my introduction to his work) and wrote him off entirely because knee jerk EW. I tried to watch a few other clips on YouTube because a young guy who cooked at my restaurant said he thought I might enjoy what a shit stirrer he was. I appreciate that sort of thing and he knew it and we often had amazing debates working in the kitchen together- he was a philosophy major, smart and thoughtful and complex- didn't fit neatly into any box, like all my favorite people (including myself, minus the formal philosophy education; and this case "him" for clarity's sake is my cook, not JP)
I reported back that I couldn't get past the entitled whiny crap about his dismissiveness about pronouns. He agreed and we didn't discuss further beyond him saying "I didn't think you'd LIKE him, just find his approach interesting" meh
2 years later, I'm at my now husband's house. I spot a printout of JP's 12 Rules taped up next to his workstation. Oh boy, I thought. Then he mentioned a recent Joe Rogan podcast 🚩🚨🚩🚨
I hadn't yet begun to identify as an anarchist (because wow is that word/philosophy misunderstood) but I was beyond liberal, no bleeding heart on my sleeve hand wringing NIMBY and I took a lot of pride in identifying as a disrupter and standing up for/with the underdogs. But it was then I realized that I was just as guilty of writing people off without actually engaging beyond sound bites. At the time I was also disillusioned by feminism and the online cult behavior of it all, especially younger women, but I kept my flag in that hill in some hopes that discourse would mature. It would be a few more years before I embraced anarchism and animism as ecosystem thinking and not isms with dogma. But who we associate with *matters*
So I really liked this guy and decided to practice what I preached about actually being open minded. I furiously listened to a smattering of Rogan episodes. Not for me, but I gained insight beyond the clips and adjusted my stance. Was I fan? No. But I softened and started to see why he was so popular and it's not just toxic bro culture stuff. Same with JP. They're case studies in media manipulation from many different angles, and I maintain they wield their influence irresponsibily, but like anything popular, it's not necessarily the icon that's terrible- it's the fan base and interpretations that skew the reality
Fast forward a year later and I'm sitting in a theater (nervously, like an interloper) waiting for JP to take the stage. I had a long list of suppositions about the audience, mostly younger white men. But I was surprised at the number of women and non-white people in attendance. It was orderly, people were kind, patient, earnest and eager- the energy was reverent. Peterson took the stage and was genuinely a rambling delight to listen to. He corrected himself as went, he changed course, he was nimble and charming. What the hell 😂
Again, still not a fan. But I get it now. He's so much more that a few sound bites but I find his authoritarian/authoritative stance to be deeply at odds with my values. Yet I also see his *archetype* and how young men, in this day and age, would find that appealing. And it opened much more empathy and understanding for the wide gray expanse between incel and "ideal" man. My husband is more of a fan than he'll admit, and one spell where I couldn't effectively get through to him I addended JP's 12 Rules with a (anarchist animist) wife version. Because the man was onto something- but it's so incomplete. Yet I also have that man to thank for inspiring my work in system roles and making space for complexity without complicity.
And now that my response is as long as your essay... I'll stop there 😂 thanks for being a great example of holding multiple truths. Oh and, I came across re-enchantment via Craig Chalquist in his essay about why he no longer teaches the Heroes Journey, before I knew about JP (such a hipster move! Ha!)
“Fast forward a year later and I'm sitting in a theater (nervously, like an interloper) waiting for JP to take the stage. I had a long list of suppositions about the audience, mostly younger white men. But I was surprised at the number of women and non-white people in attendance. It was orderly, people were kind, patient, earnest and eager- the energy was reverent. Peterson took the stage and was genuinely a rambling delight to listen to. He corrected himself as went, he changed course, he was nimble and charming. What the hell 😂”
Thank you for sharing. I wish everyone had the opportunity to see Jordan Peterson lecture in person. His character and perspective on life defy a lot of assumptions people make about him.
https://infovores.substack.com/p/partial-q-and-a-transcript-from-jordan
Just went and read through your "teasers" and the comments and I gotta add that I realize I may be doing the too cool for Peterson thing here myself, but I hope what I'm actually trying to convey comes through: talking about him conveys different things to different demographics, and I'm suspicious of both people who adore him and those who loathe him. Making room for the nuance of influence is close to my heart. Like my boss who would tease me for loving the oldies station "there's so much better music from that time" Yes, and, some accessible boppy pop is sometimes what brings people together. (And we could get into how "problematic" artists of that time were and draw some parallels 😂)
I came into this as a new follower (your Rocky piece shared by a friend) and have appreciated the way you tweak the lenses of modernity.
I really enjoyed your comment and I don't think it falls it that category - it seemed earnest. Thank you so much for reading.
Thank you for mentioning Craig Chalquist. Spent a day studying his approach. Resonates a lot, also very insightful.
Nice! I took one of his courses/workshops and got a lot out of it, I'm always happy to spread his name around. I realized a lot reading this piece about the many intersecting interests I often discuss are unwitting signals to Jordan Peterson's work, which has never been my intent but it makes sense now realizing he's probably responsible for more people delving into Jung than the MBTI 😂
I liked Craig’s personality. I couldn't say the same about Peterson. Something is very rigid, harsh, strict, and disturbing in his energy. Hitler vibes I’d say 😀 Anyways, thanks again for pointing out Craig's work, it feels very organic and true. I’ll check a bit more of his work.
Bee, I just wanted to thank you for the little life-way history. At 62 I read Substack in part to get a sense of the millennial and younger thought-value trajectory. This is how I encountered and befriended JT (having much earlier encountered JP). So just know that no need to apologize for long personal story notes (I am also inclined to do the same). I will stop there, though I will say at my age and history I see a Good trajectory for you and your matrimonial life mate. I would speculate on where an metaphor-following ecological animist is heading (carrying an -ist backpack and bumper stickers) but that might fire you up in an unkind way. (🚩🚨). 🙏🏼
Well received, sir, thank you. I like being fired up clearly, but I appreciate your restraint as well as the blessing 😂 but I'm no spring chicken at 48, and the joys of being curious about life have brought me to a deeply integrated faith, and while I'm not Christian, I'm a big fan of Jesus and his teachings. Which makes it all the more exciting to be interacting in this space, as I'm not likely the "target audience" for James's work, it's inspiring and proactive to me in ways my own usual circles (labyrinths?! 🌀) don't tap into much. I was a bit nervous leaving the comment for multiple reasons, then embarrassed a little that I jumped in without more of a grasp of the work James has put out here, but I've found this all invigorating and have been sharing the conversation with my husband. He's a keeper ;)
Funny, I just returned from a couple of days with my ski buddy who is also your age. (My ski and surf age is much younger than chronological age). Perhaps that is why I detected your generational range within the thoughtful seeker genre. And agreed that “usual circles” can become corrals if we allow them to be. I’m embedded in a small hippie arty academic non-profit science ecology design professional context (and the same town) for 32 years. Very few of my mostly lovable compatriots realize there is a hole in the fence, let alone a potential better adventure beyond the enclosure. Those of us who venture in and out under our cloak of invisibility can occasionally sense it in one another but are careful to confide carefully and over time. We want to share but there are consequences to consider and little utility or kindness in uninvited boosterism. “Cause” in extreme = caustic. Erosion is not a motivator for me; yes to Good preferable to no to bad. Etc.
My ski and surf age is, uh, probably toddler range 😂 I have all the energy but lack coordination (but make up for it with a comedic and optimistic outlook)
I appreciate the reflection on caustic, I'll be borrowing that. Several sentences here have my brain and heart cranking, thanks for your generosity in engaging with me 🙏🏼
This essay does a better job of explaining the Peterson phenomenon than anything else I've read. Really well articulated.
I also never understood how guys like Harris could so fully misunderstand Peterson - maybe those guys are just missing something that, as you said, relies on experience rather than ideology for beliefs. Harris's entire worldview is based on a utilitarian foundation which simply does not find value in stories or myths. I find that completely out of touch and frankly anti-human. I mean, what the hell kind of human being doesn't learn from stories?
You've reminded me how ungrateful and cowardly it would be to spurn him in public. He does plenty of things that bother me, in a very visceral way, but he did after all help me finally get off the launchpad into classical thinking and reading. And for that he is a hero and will always be.
Thanks, Justin. I also find Sam to be baffling - but he seems well-meaning enough. I also like Dawkins. He's funny, at least.
Agree fully on the last bit.
I like Jordan Peterson. Like a lot of people in post-Soviet countries did.
The first time I saw him was on the Joe Rogan Experience, and then I started digging his lectures, his debate with Sam Harris. What struck me wasn’t what he thought, but how he thought. He showed me that symbolic thinking can exist without naivety, tradition can exist without obedience, that myth doesn’t have to mean regression and critique doesn’t have to crumble into nihilism.
This was fresh for me. Not because I’d never encountered these ideas at all. What was new was realising how deprived Western public discourse seemed of these modes of thought and how allergic it was to them.
Later, when I moved to Europe, a lot of things disturbed me. Like trying to talk to people about Peterson and discovering that many of them had absolutely no idea what he actually said, what he stood for, or what intellectual tradition he came from, but they already had a fully formed opinion about him. Honestly, it was fucked up.
Very close to my experience.
Thanks for including your dream in this. I really appreciate the subtext of leaving, (or not falling into), your cultural/intellectual father's house and the necessity of building your own.
Thanks, man. I actually didn't fully understand what it meant until just now, haha.
I’m not taking my poster down out of principle, and probably even some affection for the man, not because the man was right about everything, and who is, but because if you watched Michael Jordan in the 90’s, you just kinda had to be there to understand… To understand why LeBron can never be Jordan and I’m not gonna try to argue why anymore.
Would love to talk more about the feelings that drive this piece. And why the sons of Noah either scoff or cover their father’s shame…
“I write essays for God’s sake” lol
Thanks, dude. Would love to chat more about it sometime.
Christian, since I see comments from both you and Ethan here, I'll assume someone has already brought this piece to PVK's attention?
I need to talk to Paul at some point.
The world should be profoundly grateful to Jordan Peterson. Full stop.
That would be where someone would normally throw in some “despite his flaws” or “despite being wrong about X” - but of course he has flaws and things he is wrong about. He’s human! So I love that you mostly kept those caveats at bay. Great essay.
I didn’t come to JBP from the same angle as you - in 2016/2017 I was a 30-something mom who had formerly been a devout Catholic but found myself spiritually lost in a morass of doubt and confusion. Peterson helped me think about things I had known and believed in a totally fresh way without being afraid of where the ideas would take me. He was only one of the means God used in my life, but he was a big one.
I will go out on a limb and say that I think the illnesses he is experiencing are spiritual warfare. Whether it’s purely external attack, or whether he’s fighting some internal battle, whether there is some knee he won’t bend to God, that I couldn’t say.
Last thought - while most of this essay is really insightful, I will admit to not being aware of the main thesis. I knew JBP inspired split opinions, both on the left and the right. But I didn’t realize that even those who owe him a debt were keeping quiet about it. I guess it’s true? I hadn’t noticed and if I had, I maybe chalked it up to the short life of trends in our modern world - “how much more can be said about Jordan Peterson” - that sort of thing. I personally am willing to admit his role in my life - but I also don’t talk about him as much as I used to - maybe there’s something natural about that? Like you said - he was a doorway for me, but I’m already in the room. I don’t need to keep focusing on the door.
Ok, last last thought! I know this is a much more recent phenomenon, of maybe only the last year (at least openly) - but I wonder how he is/will be dragged by the split on the right due to the Israel question? His alignment with the Daily Wire and his stance before falling ill put him clearly in one camp. There are those who were pupils of his who will now find themselves at least questioning that stance, if not fully disavowing him because of it.
Thanks so much for the comment. It's good to hear from someone who enjoyed him "from the other side" so to speak. My wife and I are in OCIA classes now, so we're criss-crossing it seems.
Maybe more intersecting? I’m pretty ensconced in the conservative Presbyterian world now, but I’m confessionally just a Nicene Creed Christian with a lot of open mindedness about theology, ecclesiology, and liturgical praxis - not in a liberal way, I’m literal in my interpretation of Scripture and the central tenants found in the Creed. But I’ve given up on having epistemic certainty about litigating the differences between denominations. I’ve landed on - whatever church is one you’ll faithfully attend and brings you closer to Jesus - go there. And if your church is causing you to sin, go elsewhere.
Blessings on you and you wife in your process of becoming Catholic!
Thank you muchly!
I agree. We should be grateful to JBP. He radically changed our eldest son for the better when he started listening to him in high school. He grew up in the church but was disconnected from the meaning of it all. Jordan gave him scaffolding and stones. I started following JBP a bit after that to see what the fuss was about. I had never read, much less heard of, many of the things (for lack of better words) he talked about. I was a narrow, highly-gaurded Presbyterian who didn't have the mental wherewithal to handle history, philosophy, psychology, AND theology. It was too much. Then one day, it all started making sense. The scaffolding was erected. The stones of a new building could be laid. It's dramatically enhanced by life.
While I will not put JBP in the place of Christ, I do believe he has been made an instrument on Christ's behalf, even if faulty at times. There are many within history/Scripture who fall into this category.
So, I too rarely talk about Peterson any longer. The work has been done. I do owe him much gratitude for helping a middle-age mom get out of her mental confinement. I owe him for being able to speak into a lost boy's life when his own family and church just didn't have the right language to communicate with him.
Now, if his brain would get out of the way so his heart can receive the gift of grace. ☺️
I’ve watched all of JP’s lectures. I even paid for a month subscription to the DW to watch Exodus. I find him oddly comforting, even when I disagree thoroughly. We share a favorite book - Denial of Death- and I wrote a masters thesis on Jung long before I engaged with JP. I honestly feel no shame saying I appreciate him, and would love to talk with him. Jordan, with open mind and heart, posted YouTube lectures after penning an answer to a Quora question that resulted in the 12 Rules, and was met with an online mob at the peak of cancel culture. His X behavior made me ache for him, when I was still on there. I watched a YouTube video of Greg Hurwitz having an intervention with him. I do hope he’s going to be okay. I miss his podcast. A progressive friend of mine tells me “Jen, you can’t possibly like JP. You are a college educated gay person!” But alas, i do. JP provided me with a doorway to step back into Christianity when i needed it most. Thanks for this compelling and beautiful essay.
Wow, this is awesome. Thanks for the comment, Jen.
I had a feeling he would fall eventually in public esteem and made a vow to myself back then that I wouldn’t ever badmouth him (barring some extreme circumstance). Wish I could find the meme I made, ‘leave Britney alone’ with JP’s name pasted over hers. I can say he’s not right about everything; as a religious person, his views on religion leave much to be desired. But I have a lot of affection for him and feel a certain sense of loyalty. I also, like you, feel it would be cowardly to totally renounce him.
That's hilarious.
James K.A. Smith introduced me to Charles Taylor before the Peterson phenomenon through his Cultural Liturgy series. This caused his wave to be more curiosity than personally helpful.
I love the perspective in this. Causes me to ask, where am I still playing status games when it comes to group pressure and the wish to seem sophisticated?
Great question...
Smith's book on A Secular Age was nice summary. I'm not that surprised by his Marxist turn, but it makes me question my previous affection for Smith.
Interesting you bring it up. I did find that turn surprising. While I'm not interested in reading his future work I didn't notice overt political learnings in any of his other work (much of which I've read). I guess those who know more about the philosophers he sites may have had a heads up.
Status games are gonna status game, smith was not immune
Especially when one is already suffering from affluenza and would rather plan what others should give up than personally consider Christ's call to sell all you have and give to the poor.
I am really grateful for this. I was a huge fan of Peterson back in 2016, but over time my appreciation has waned. You helped me remember just what a profound legacy he has.
Thanks, Jameson.
Funny thing about Dostoyevsky is he spent much of his youth in the liberal circles only to repudiate some of those beliefs as he got older. I was struck by some of the similar arguments he described in Crime and Punishment from the nihilists and how they would have been right at home on tumblr. Eh well nothing new under the sun
The entirety of Demons could have taken place in 2020 Discord.
Dude. This is astounding. So lucid.
Thank you, Robert.
Well said, Bee! Also a member of the (somewhat intellectually marginalized) other half of the human talent pool, I appreciate your piping up so eloquently to James’s magnificent exposition, like an intricate martial arts kata, all flashing blade, acrobatic spins and flips. I admit I could only follow half - or less- of the references, but the beauty, pace and vigor of the language made it worth reading. I was struck by how often the word hate appeared, followed by references to boredom and embarrassment. Hate, I believe, is rooted in disappointed love. Hitler rose to power because he could speak to longing and fear, offering a shining ideal, and the people, swamped in their stagnating, repressive culture, were starving for an ideal.
We love an ideal, until we’ve sucked the juice and chewed it dry, then toss it away in disgust when it has apparently nothing more to offer. Though maybe there are seeds at the core, that if planted, might bear fruit… As we mature, we can become more selective, discerning, and often willingly collaborate to cultivate ideals that nourish rather than lead.
It occurs to me that if you grow up believing that ‘the powers that be’ can order you into service to fight and possibly die for your country, you may feel that ‘powers that be’ do not include you, and therefore, you are constantly measuring all kinds of authority in terms of ‘power’ often balancing on a fulcrum of shame about your own perceived status. As you mature, you might claim the status of ‘power’ to tell people what you believe they need to know, which feels good, feels like a contribution to the collective conversation. And after you try doing that for a while, and things get messy, you may have to ‘drop the rope’ you’ve been tugging on, and let people do what they do, so that you can reclaim your own health and integrity.
Later in life we all go soft, more able to be and let be. I wish JP grace and ease at this stage of life, and I applaud James (and his wife) for sharing their ongoing process of understanding and discernment. I have to say, of all my 7 decades of life so far, this one is the most exciting and invigorating. We’re having more fun than ever!
Beautiful essay
It’s probably tack, not tact; also, the expression, IIRC, is cutting a rug, not cutting up a rug.
I like to keep the mistakes.
Ah, well.
My inner copy editor also paused at those two spots.
Jordan Prometheus.
Icarus flew-too-close-to-the Peter-sun
This is an interesting read! Comparing Peterson and Socrates does miss the mark. I agree with you here. I always thought of Peterson as our Desiderius Erasmus, a heterodox thinker who used a new technology to spread his ideas.
Jordan Peterson was the academic who got rich and famous by taking his ideas OUTSIDE the insular world of the ivory tower. He is a thinker in an older tradition, despite his shortcomings (particularly his forays into the culture war - he failed on a Jubilee debate last year).
Compared to major living thinkers, Peterson rank quite highly. You mentioned Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. Harris is not a great thinker and his superficial reduction of religion is fit for sophomoric teenagers. Dawkins hit his peak with’The Selfish Gene’ decades ago. Neither is a match for Peterson.
Peterson succeeds in making the Classics relevant to large audiences (something my own liberal arts professors in college routinely failed to do).
Peterson fails in that his understanding of such thinkers as Jung, Nietzsche, and Eliade never equal the giants themselves. His ‘Maps of Meaning’ is an excellent read but his more popular books make him little more than the distiller of other people’s ideas.
I think time will tell with Peterson. Being a great communicator is a great genius indeed and I think he will be remembered well for that.